Speaking about the beginning of time … when did you say that was? What primitive peoples are you referring to here? Human nature is something the RCC will not allow in any form. You were a little shy on anything specific above. The reference (#8) is a layman’s textbook description … however I call your attention to the last part, the crux of the matter “… divine involvement in the universe and human life” part that bothers me as you claim only your one God is capable of doing this without a shred of evidence??? I think the RCC ‘religion’ and the just human religions of old have this trait in common as none of them could produce anything real about their god (s) either. Coincident or by design … is a valid question?
 
Luther humm, I cannot say I know that much about him beyond the obvious. 1- He had the wherewithal to oppose your RCC at a time when heresy was often a terminal charge and amply demonstrated its corruption, its capitalism of god’s word and its overabundances in the extreme. 2- He interpreted that the purpose of religion had no meaning if everything was just about God … a better gage of ones love of God was how you treated your fellow man … the sheep of God. I agree … philosophically anyway. And 3- He saw the RCCC as a work of man, a fiction as God did not need a self-appointed caretaker and full time interpreter. Beyond that I’ll take your word on anything at least reasonably possible that you may think of him after all, you are the expert in slanderous religious matters.

It comes from the same place it always has ... the one with the biggest stick. Self-preservation alone given ample time (to overcome irrational superstition) is enough for people to weed out their own bad apples. Too bad we are incapable of holding governments or Churches to this lowly ideal of man.Are you serious ... I had to look up the word ‘canonize’ just to be sure and I refuse to allow you to use such Catholic terms when referencing me … hahaha. It is simple remember … I write, you read and you correct comment on everything I say … business as usual. What do my ideas have to do with perfection … an impossible state of affairs, RCC excluded of course? Are you trying to say that Catholics are lacking in those things I described above for no other reason that “I” find them virtuous and universal???
 
Jones and Smith will have to deal with their ‘plight’ without my help, but I would say they need to pay all their debts or face the consequences for their actions. I have trouble with your hypothetical parables so I will pose a more realistic example for you. You are a Catholic zealot living in Germany and you have ‘Jewish’ refugees in your attic. A Nazi patrol knocks on your door and asks you if you know where the refugees are hiding … how will you answer? I am sure you know what I would say with my hedonistic morals such as they are … but how about you?

What is the so called "proof" that man existed before Biblical times? 

To me, the beginning of time as we know it has gotta be when God created it, space and matter and specially created each kind of animal, plant and human life and set genetic variation into operation to allow subsequent changes within kind as explained in Genesis.

God created time as we know it somewhere in the vicinity of 6 to 10,000 years ago.  

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The ones who dispersed after Babel and then after the Flood of Noe.

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What do you mean?

Every human being has human nature. That's the way God created us; He gave us a human nature and an immortal soul. 

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The universe and all that's in it, including animal, plant and human life is evidence. They reveal God to us as the First Cause. The order of nature itself affords us thousands of instances of proof of an Intelligent First Cause God.  We've discussed this before.

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Nah, you gotta think deeper than that. 

Look at what I've highlighted in what you said. I asked you how do you know these actions highlighted are right or wrong?  Where does the universal sense of morality come from? 

 

Lula, you guys have had your go with things for a thousand years ... the top dog ... the biggest stick (you are silly). Well that time is long gone now so get used to it. You have failed to prove anything besides the fact that you are the most outlandish and hypocrital excuse artist I know. Proof requires more that quoting some parables from your bible ... let alone the internal nonsense your Church created to authorize its rape of the world. Voluntary conversion is one thing but conversion by force and by the sword is another matter indeed. You make no sense when you talk about "The universe and all that's in it, including animal, plant and human life (as if you are somehow gifted with ‘universal’ knowledge) is evidence (evidence of what???). They reveal God to us as the First Cause." (What first cause are you babbling about???). Why do you disregard the obvious proof all around you? I don’t care what your superstitions are … only a fool would blatantly refuse to even acknowledge the prowess of man in his own right. I can offer you proof aplenty … but you will not acknowledge any of it as such preferring to believe some words written centuries ago by idiots (by today’s standards) who believed the world was flat and completely discovered. You try to take what we know today through the efforts of man and pretend this knowledge had been evident to your founders too … and this is codswallop. This is just the Catholic way of pretending that the ancients were actually intelligent and capable of knowing everything we know today … poppycock indeed. And if they didn’t (couldn’t) know what we know today, then they were obviously misinformed by your powers that were (are). This is no different than your claim that you yourself are blessed with this absolute knowledge of your God and the whole universe … absurd I say. I know you don’t know much (if anything) about the real universe simply because you do not even know how to discuss it. If you actually believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old … then you have told me everything I need to know about your inherent knowledge and your reasoning skills.

The Bible is made up of the OT (book of the Jews) which wasn't changed and writings about the time/life of Jesus that the “Catholic Church” selected from (amongst themselves only) many, many writings of the day some within fifty years of the death of Jesus) … and called that compilation the NT. The 'historic fact' that the Bible was made 150-300 years after the presumed events is true only because that was the period when it was compiled into one book. The Roman Catholic Church wasn’t in existence when this compilation was done and consequently the words “Catholic Church” do not exist in the bible itself simply because it is a compilation of events/writings, many hundreds of years prior to the existence of the Catholic Church. One would have to question your self- anointed powers over all of mankind as I do. The Catholic Church as an insult was called the “Roman catholic church” by British Protestants who rejected the omnipotence of the Bishop of Rome (Papa) as does much of Christendom today. The Roman Catholic Church today has many idiosyncrasies that are not shared with the rest of the Christian Church. The Great Command of Mission work demanded that the apostles "go into the entire World and preach the gospel" (what a misnomer that) … but this is where Catholicism began and where the RCC diverged from true Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church did not even exist as we know it today until the Schism … so stop telling me how you guys were first.

Now I know where the phrase “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Comes from … The RCC is pack full of ‘good intentions’ even though Heaven can only be reached through possession of a pure soul (your words) … which of course is humanly impossible. From the Pope down to and including yourself, all Catholics have the innate authority to sell salvation and make impossible promises to those that can deceive most easily … the downtrodden, the homeless, the forlorn, the uneducated, the crippled and the aged. This could be what is meant by “The weak shall inherit the Earth” … if it weren’t just another RCC scheme to raise money and to pretend they are gathering sheep (SINO) into the fold.

Please tell me you actually want to discuss Noah and family as this is one of many indefensible claims in the bible!

No Catholic has complete disregard for men and their knowledge. We just understand that man's knowledge is finite and in the end for all their knowledge in the sciences, etc. the big questions still remain....here is a short clip of what I mean by that. 

http://www.realcatholictv.com/daily/?today=2011-11-11

Lula, I watched the clip but there was nothing substantive in it. All Mr. Voris does throughout is pander to us mere people on how our belief in God will explain everything in the universe to us (so easy, no school) … and that knowledge as foreordained in your myths by the significance of the “Tree of Knowledge”, is the only thing in the world that can fight superstitions and advance us up a step in evolution. It seems that Your God erred as he only made two people and they both preferred knowledge to superstition … so now the RCC steps in to do what God himself couldn’t do … perfection indeed, hahaha. What in the world does finite have to do with anything? There is nothing infinite about the RRC or the Bible except your insistence on believing in ghosts. I know, I know … God works in mysterious ways which are totally beyond man’s cognitive skills … for only the RCC (which came 8,000 years after well everything) claims to know the Mind of God,  ... how quaint is that, hahaha.

 

 

First, the CC certainly doesn't speak for God in all matters (although in the final analysis all matters have to do with God)!  

Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church was given Christ's infallible authority to preach, teach and speak in matters of the Christian Faith and morals.

As far as the individual lay members---when we say some doctrine or meaning of Scripture is true, we only repeat what the CC's official teachers (The Magisterium, the Pope and the bishops) have taught. 

 

Christ chose His Twelve Apostles and established only one Church with St.Peter as its leader.  He taught them the Faith and the way to practice that Faith. Just before He ascended into Heaven, He gave the Apostles His authority to teach and preach all nations and told them He would be with them until the end of the world.  He also said He would send the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them. 

 

The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ. Eph. 5:23-32. Jesus can have but one spouse and that one spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches and practices one Faith which was taught and practiced first by the Apostles. St.Jude 3. This is the unity of belief to which Christ calls us. Phil. 1:27; 2:2.

 The CC is the Mystical Body of Christ.....a divine body, an organic and spiritual entity. The true faithful make up the members of body while Christ reigns in Heaven as the Eternal Priest and Head.   

The Bible passages that bear this out are:

Col. 1:18, "Again, He is the head of His body, the Church." 

"Now you are the body of Christ, member for member." 1Cor. 12:27. 

Christ's one Chruch must be a unified body. Not segmented as all the Protestant churches that began after Martin Luther in 1517. 

The Bible passages are:

"There shall be one fold and one shepherd" St.John 10:16. 

"And the glory that thou, Father, has given Me, I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one." 17:22. 

"You were called in one body, ...one Spirit...one hope...one Lord...one faith...one baptism." Eph. 4:4-6. 

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Again, Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of His Church. First, He gave Peter special authority among the apostles. St.John 21:15-17 and signified this by changing his name from Simon to Kepha (Aramaic), Petros (Greek) and Peter (English), which means 'rock' 1:42. Christ said Peter was to be the rock on which He would build His Church.

St. Matt. 16:18-19 

And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 

Explanation of those things underlined are as follows: 

[18] Thou art Peter: As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

[18] Upon this rock: The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25.

[18] The gates of hell: That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

BT,

Note in verse 19, Christ gave St.Peter "the keys to the kingdom" and the power and authority "to bind and loose". 

The Bible often calls the Church "the kingdom"...and Peter was given the keys to Christ's Church, His kingdom. The keys are symbols of Christ's authority given to Peter to rule the Church in His absence.  And He promised Peter's decisions would be binding in Heaven. 

In St.Matt. 18:18, Christ gave the other apostles the same power of "binding and loosing".

SHortly before He acsended into Heaven Christ directed His teaching and preaching authority and mission to the Apostles.

St.Matt. 28:18-20, 

" All power in Heaven and earth has been given to Me, go therefore teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." 

The Bible teaches the teaching and preaching authority of Christ's one Church would not, could not ever err beacsue fallible teachers would not be doing the teaching.

Christ pledged divine protection to that teaching authority...

"These things I have spoken to you while yet dwelling with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit,whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you...when the Advocate has come, whom I will send you from the Father, He will bear witness concerning Me, becasue from the beginning you are with Me."  St.John 14:25-26, 15:26-27.

In other words, the infallible Holy Spirit, the infallible Christ, would be doing the actual teaching, speaking through the human teaching authority of His Church. Christ made this quite clear when He said, 

"He who hears you hears Me." St.Luke 10:16. 

The human teaching authority is of His Church is the Magisterium which is the pope and bishops, the successors of the Apostles. 

That's why we call the Church, Apostolic. 

Christ appointed the Apostles to be the first leaders and their successors were to be its future leaders. The Apostles were the Church's first bishops. The pope is the successor of Peter as bishop of Rome. The Church's other bishops are successors to the Apostles in general. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the Apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral tradition. 2Tim. 2:2. 

 

Let's try again. You obviously have a sense of right and wrong. In reply #2, you said 

You don't believe in God, don't practice religion, etc. ....

So that's why I asked, Where does your sense of right and wrong (morality) come from? 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes BT, you say the oddest things. 

Christ was certainly a historical Person. That can't be denied. Find out about His life, work and teachings and you will discover He established a Church, the one that was later named "catholic" by St.Ignatius in 107AD. Silly, it was not the other way around as you suggest. 

 

Lula the word Catholic doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible. It was not even mentioned for many years after the NT was compiled by who else … The Catholic Church (RCC wasn’t in existence then), but what are a few facts against superstition? Apostles, that’s a Catholic thing in the NT, right? This is the book compiled by Catholics for Catholics with just their own council … come on here; you guys just compile yourself into the role of “God incarnate” (for all Catholics … ONLY?) on Earth … and beyond, go figure.

Where does my morality come from … this you need an answer for, hahaha. How did tribes once unknown to the pleasures of an association with the RCC, everywhere actually … procreate and grow deprived of your silver tongues, without killing themselves and everyone else too for that matter. You see, the chaos you try to blame man for does not exist and never did in the real world. It only exists  in superstition where Man probably was fine till such time as he learned how to control everything with a god and of course the accompanying rule book on how to survive the experience. This superstition stuff is serious business because nary a one of them was able to produce one scrap of proof either … and they all refused to allow anyone to question their authority as they spoke for their god of choice too. I would have thought you guys could at least try to be authentic instead of repeating the same story line of many gods that preceded your choice.

I really don’t understand this question beside an innate desire to survive in society and from the auspices of The RCC, Inc. I am well read and educated Lula and I am not blind or stupid. I was impressed how you guys shut the Jews down though … classic that, hehehe. Lula, it would be easier and less time consuming if you could skip the RCC-C bible school lessons for obvious reason I would think, but that’s just me. Who in their right mind would want to everything is beyone me??? Is that even possible???

Lula, this silly statement was yours not mine??? You try to pull this switch quite often you know. I didn’t understand it then and I still don't now, but I have come to the conclusion that none of your RCC nonsense holds water. And when was this turn of the first century poll taken on which you can blame the whole world for hating your Church nonsense or any of its invented people. Some research seems to indicate that the Jesus figure may have actually lived ... but there is no proof whatsoever that this figure was responsible for anything historically or superstitiously. Your absolute proof for all your beliefs and abominations comes from legends and fairy tales passed by word of mouth for centuries and doesn’t qualify as proof of anything else … nor does it deserve any more merit or attention than tales of the Loch Ness monster which likewise cannot be substantiated, go figure. Lula, you just spout mysticism and demand that we take it as some kind of truth or proof of anything besides your inability to reason or think for yourself.

My point in calling it silly is that even you (as an intelligent person and deep in your heart) must know that Christ is not an invention. Jesus Christ came and no one can forget His personality, and what He did and said. No one, not the CC could ever invent Christ, for he was the One Who said things that men have died for, not just then in the first century, or the centuries following up to today, but hundreds of years from now until the end of the world. 

Lula posts:

What I said comes from the Bible, the Gospel of St.John 15:18. "If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you." 

When Christ said this, He was explaining to His Apostles and disciples that the world would be hostile towards them becasue they believed in Him and were His followers; hostile towards the Chuch He established and hostile towards His religion. 

So Christ told us how it would be for His Church and of course, His words are true. The world at the time of Christ hated Him first. And this is why His followers, His Church, from the Apostles on down through the ages were/are in their turn hated as well.

The Church from her beginning in 33AD has experienced this world wide hatred that Christ predicted. The world's hatred of Christ and His Church, His religion,  takes the form of systematic and unjust opposition to all the things of God.  

"The world" here in this passage means all those who have not believed in Christ and have rejected Him. 

 

 

 

BT posts:

Lula posts:

BT posts:

C'mon BT. Our morality does not come from common sense or from the laws. Our laws are based on morality, not the reverse. 

Lula posts:

BT posts:

Yes, if you please, I'd like to know. 

Is this question an attempt at an answer to my question? If so, where did these tribes get their sense of right and wrong (Morality)?

I have asked this question before of other atheists and one gal said our sense of right and wrong came by way of  evolution but upon further questioning, she clammed up, and would not/could not explain her answer any further.

   

 

No we are not animals. We are human beings, in every way far above the animals.

Man is an immortal soul incarnated in a human body. 

When animals die, it's over..final. When we die, it's just the beginning of everlasting life in Heaven or Hell. 

 

One last try here. The only parts of the world that hate the RCC are the ones that have had to deal with their kind of justice. During this time period, Jesus was an unknown on any kind of world scale for goodness sake girl, these people didn't even know there was a whole world and the whole world certainly didn't know about your Christ. Therefore the whole world certainly couldn't have hated your God at least till such time when the Catholics introduced him in their compilation of the NT. Even then the hate wasn’t automatic but if followed the RCC wherever it went a calling … and around the world today. I do not think the world holds Christianity in awe after all; they have their own fantasies to try and live out. They have about as much respect for Christianity as well … Christianity does for them. May the best fanatic win hahaha! The sciences have dropped you guys from the radar as insignificant and well past boring (the other magicians too). This hatred of your one God doesn’t stem from anyone’s actual fear of this entity of yours … this fear and hatred is totally against the RCC Inc. which of necessity then reflects on your chosen apparition … it is your fault. So the above quoted statement is just so typical and full of hog droppings.