This sort of thing really doesn't lend itself to discussion in the abstract.  It always bumps into the reality that we live in societies.

I believe we have a responsibility as parents, not to 'indoctrinate' our children (which implies dis-information), but to provide them with a structured, principled upbringing and education, to prepare them to succeed on some level on their own as adults.  Perpetuating the notion that children have been 'groomed' is a little insulting to our kids, IMO.  How does it help them to suggest that the formative years of their lives have been some sort of fraud perpetrated upon them?  That's a rather cynical point of view, one that is insulting to parents.

Children will become one of three things as adults: 1) constructive contributors to the betterment of the social fabric; 2) destructive detractors from the social fabric; or 3) harmless freeloaders.  Whether a particular society 'brainwashes' its children can be largely graded by the relative proportions of those outcomes, perfection not being an option.

Unless you are prepared (I am not right now) to look at this on a personal level, I do not see how this discussion can take place except in the abstract. Some assumptions were assumed: I am not discussing everyone or any one person in particular; I am talking about the deviant and nonsensical elements of all societies.

Understanding that Brainwashing (like profiling) is mandatory in all societies, I accept this as a fact of social life. It might help here if I told you that I am an atheist albeit not a typical one. Personally, I really do not care what people think, I am much more interested why they believe what they do. I do not care if one wishes to prostrate themselves before some pagan figure, more power to them. The adults are at fault here … NOT the children.

How does it help the children after their formative years if the adults indoctrinate them with unknowns and lies … presented as undeniable truth (even if through ignorance)? As far as I know, there are no classes in racism (except in many minority schools) or one promoting criminal lifestyles or one promoting terrorism or one on how to be poor (or rich). So where do these people come from if not from the indoctrination of people who should know better, but do not seem to care … enough? You bet I am cynical, just look at the news and tell me if you can find something that actually makes sense.

I rest my case here ... just look at the stupidity in practice throughout the U.S. and rest of the world.

I tend to agree with Daiwa.  Words have meanings.  And indoctrination implies lies.  While it is true that some parents intentionally lie to their children about important things (let us not get into the argument of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny), most do not.  teaching children about a belief system, when honestly believed to be true is not indoctrination (no more so that teaching a child the world is flat when ignorant of its true shape is indoctrination).

Most children do rebel during their teen years and early adult years.  Those raised poorly may be crippled for the experience, or gain greater wisdom at a quicker pace than the normal child.  As you began this article, equality ends at birth, and that is not a bad thing (I am a better network Engineer than you, but probably a worse cook).  It is what makes us individuals, and not lemmings (or more recently Menhaden).

All this to get to the bolded word - IF. It does happen, and yes, the results are usually bad.  But the results are not a guarantee (nor raising a child correctly a guarantee of a productive person).

There are evil parents who do corrupt children with lies.  But most parents fall into the loving category and that can be broken down into the informed, and the ignorant.  The latter can be as bad as the evil parents, but they are not themselves indoctrinating or being evil in regards to the rearing of their children.

I gather, then, that this is really about religion.  Or am I misreading you?

Definition of equal as per wordnetweb:

• be identical or equivalent to; "One dollar equals 1,000 rubles these days!"
• be equal to in quality or ability; "Nothing can rival cotton for durability"; "Your performance doesn't even touch that of your colleagues"; "Her persistence and ambition only matches that of her parents"
• having the same quantity, value, or measure as another; "on equal terms"; "all men are equal before the law"
• make equal, uniform, corresponding, or matching; "let's equalize the duties among all employees in this office"; "The company matched the discount policy of its competitors"
• peer: a person who is of equal standing with another in a group
• adequate: having the requisite qualities or resources to meet a task;

Seems to me your definition of what equal means does not go with the actual definition of equal. Now, had that saying said "all men are created exactly the same" then your argument would make more sense. But in reality it doesn't take a genius to understand that equal does not mean exactly the same right down to the molecules. I would say "equal" in that phrase was meant more as the second or third definition above. Just like a dog is a dog, a human is a human which makes them "equal" unless one of the 2 responsible for creating the human was from another planet.

Interesting. Imagine if we simply decided to do like what some animals do and we simply leave our children to fend for themselves. Oh how quickly our race will drop in numbers. Ironically most animals are designed with natural instincts that drives them to survive but some still need assistance when still infants. Take tigers and lions for example; the parents have to teach the cubs the proper techniques when it comes to hunting for their survival. If these animals were simply left to learn for themselves they would simply die in most cases.

Brainwashing, indoctrinating, those are really strong words to use and you have to be willing to back such words up with more than fancy talk and the occasional "this is what happens when religion gets out of control" stories before accusing the majority of such actions. These are basically subjective words as you can't define what constitutes brainwashing or indoctrination when it comes to what parents teach their children. You can simply have an opinion on what they teach their children.

Ironically, although you consider yourself an atheist technically you, like any religious person, have a belief. You believe that there is no God. By the same token if you have children you will teach them what you deem proper based on your "beliefs" whether religion is part of it or not. You may not believe in God or be religious but I'm sure even you have to agree with at least 6 out of the 10 commandments and would teach them to your children even if not referencing the coincidence that your atheist beliefs do not keep you from agree with 6 of the 10 commandments.

This is not truth, this is assumption and opinion because one does not really know what the person will be regardless what you may try to teach them. As the saying goes "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink it". Not every bad person was raised by bad parents and not every good person was raised by good parents, that is the truth.

I consider this to be somewhat inaccurate. Although we may not always be able to control what is taught to us we can control what we learn. I do not believe people are computers simply waiting for programing to be installed, I believe people already have their minds set on what they want to believe from the moment they can think for themselves and simply wait for the opportunity to pursue this belief.

I knew from way before I was taught that women were to be respected and not treated like possessions, that taking what was not yours was wrong (that includes material stuff and life itself), that things happen for a reason and not simply because of chance.

Ironically even with the knowledge being available we still "suffer the leash of one slave driver after another and to repeat these failures throughout history" but not because of "a lack of knowledge and the ability to readily disseminate information" but because of the lack of interest in learning all together. The real problem with the people of this nation is choice, they choose to be ignorant even when everything is there for them to educate themselves easily.

Here's a prime example of a person who chooses to be ignorant. Rep. Christopher Lee, a married man, was dumb enough to take a shirtless picture of himself and send it to a random women from Craigs List. Seriously, how stupid can you truly get? Even if stupidity is not a choice, this guy chose it none the less.

A belief is a faith, not a religion. You can't have religion without faith, but you can have faith without religion.

Religion is just faith with 4 walls and a ceiling.  So your "faith" in the absence of God is your religion.  Where you practice it is your business.

BOOBZTWO

Yes and no. Yes, because all are equal insofar as each is a soul before God and must meet the same Judge and no because each one of us is unique and therefore cannot be equal.

Exactly. Both heredity and environment give us a very unequal start in life.

.........................

DAIWA

That's what I'm thinking and base that on this: 

BoobzTwo

Note the highlighted. It's  brainwashing or indoctrination only if parents are religious. Otherwise parents teach their children everything else such as racism and perversion.

DRG.

Absolutely. Here's mine on "indoctrination".

I'm thinking of the year 2000 and the case of a 6 year old boy named Elian Gonzolez snetenced to a life indoctrinated in Communism. Communism is a system that locks people in...no freedom...people are killed trying to leave.

Elian survived an escape from Communist Cuba but since Elian is a "possession of the Cuban government" Castro insisted that he be returned. You see Cuban law dictates that "every child must be raised with a Communist personality" and bars all influences contrary to Communism.

Elian was returned to Cuba not to be with his father who also is a slave to the COmmunist government, but to become a little Communist or die. Under the totalitarian regime imposed in Cuba since 1959, the individual, except the Communist elite and military, grows, lives and dies under the constant control of the State.

"Never is this hold more relentless and pervasive than from childhood through adolescence. Due to the importance given by communists to these character-forming years, the regime concentrates on even the most minute details of a child's education to establish an enduring sense of dependency and subjugation of the individual to the State.

As such, the state-controlled education system becomes the essential tool for the lasting indoctrination of the individual. Parents and the broader family do not participate in the determination of a child's education or any activities from the age of five to late adolescence. The ideological and educational custody of the child is from the outset the exclusive domain of the Communist State. The parents are reduced to being simple spectators for the fear of the consequences of interfering in the wishes of the State."

Faith without religion is human faith. There is is big difference between human faith and supernatural faith.

Not quite that simple.

Religion implies faith or belief and is that act of voluntary subjection of oneself by which we render to God both privately as individuals, and publically as social beings the honor, gratitude, obedience and worship due to Him and in the way prescribed to Him.

Daiwa - Seemingly you do not. I used a religious reference because it is easier to explain how children are not given a choice untill after the formative years. The reference was to your window as in look outside of it at the world around you. but after reading this nonsense from Charles, I can understand

Well, this started out as a potentially interesting discussion, but I'm done reading your nonsense.  Have a nice day and a wonderful life.

Charles, this is pretty much about your caring and loving nature. You people have isolated yourselves in a 2000 year old rule book. I am an atheist not a monster. I will go so far as to admit that atheism could be considered a religion of sorts … but it is a long stretch. The only thing I believe in is the real physical world, not some fictitious make believe place. But you guys are so bigoted about your views that there is virtually nothing we can discuss. The painful part is that you, whatever you are, cannot even afford me the consideration of my own peace of mind or my own thoughts.

There are no subjects that I can bring up that will not be instantly jacked into the religious arena for proper disposal, I suppose. What part of I don’t do religion do you have a problem understanding? Lulapilgrim at least made an attempt at civility. Why are you guys so hateful and spiteful, are you really that insecure?

If you dolts would actually look at the article … I was talking about the inability of children to control anything in their early years. Nothing more than that, which for the most part all of you agreed to one degree or another, so why the hate. I do not feel inclined to make sure YOU agree with me or not, nor do I feel that I have to provide you with stupid definitions for every statement you want to take out of context. If you really want to talk about religion then burn your bible and get a real life and then we can have this jewel of a discussion.

Charles it seems you are an exceptional bigot. Your arguments are gobbledygook as are your attempts to actually question the definition of ‘equal’ of all things. Personally I do not have a problem with your list as they mirror mine and I think both hold up my argument. By the way, which definition did you pick to foil my dastardly plot to rebuke … (whatever it is I am guilty of) and that you have decided for all of us idiots the only possible definition for ‘equal’, just curious is all, don’t really give a hoot.

Only a complete baboon would make a reference to abandoning our children and If you do not like my choice of words, that is fine too, SO WHAT. You are not going to dictate my thoughts to me. Personally, since you made no attempt to ask for clarification, I do not feel obligated to give you any.

I for one have had enough of this garbage. I do not have any real problem discussing just about anything, but I will not be dictated to by a bunch of people who scorn me not for my views, but because I am different and I will never ever again bow to someone else’s imagination …

I do apologize ... what did I use too big of words, maybe I confused you too much with my nonsense and political ways of thinking ...

Here I will simplify it even more ... NO.LOOK AT PEOPLE HERE IN AMERICA U.S., bad fools. Whenever you really want to actually discuss the article, just ask ... are you really this oblivious?

Atheists don't have 4 walls and a ceiling and they aren't tax exempt.

The belief in Satan is a religion. The disbelief in Satan isn't.

You can have faith in anything. You can have faith that the plane you're in won't develop a mechanical problem and crash, or that the pilots aren't drunk.