I like Mystikmind because; well most just want to harangue and Mystik comes across as sincere, to me.

We knew where all their military installations were, their palaces, bunkers, storage depots, oil infrastructure and any other place someone might want to destroy … But we did not know where all the nuke stuff was at. Looking back, I remember all those reports on mobile chemical and biological labs with pictures and specs. And many other things that never turned up. Now we have had 8 years to rape Iraq and try to discover establish something to justify this action and they still haven’t been able to. I just wonder how many more years and deaths (ours and theirs) it will take the blind USG followers … to just look things over in view of what we know to be true today. Just doesn't seem like a difficult task.

I had said allot more about Iraq etc etc in some other thread/forum but i cannot find it? I thought i might have been you BoobzTwo who i was discussing with? I made some point about how America needs to learn to sit back and let the world community experience the consequences of its decisions, be they good or bad? This is in the context of the reason given to us by the USG to Invade Iraq the second time. The world community chose to leave him in power after the first round, therefore the world community is responsible for whatever  Sadam may or may not do from that day forward. And it is the world communities responsibility to form a consensus in response to treaty violations.

But when it comes to a situation where an aggressor, in this case Iraq, is defeated and put under restrictive treaty, when you have that situation, everyone remembers the restrictive treaties put on Germany after WW1 and what happened when those treaties were not enforced!

But hindsight is a wonderful thing and the reality is, there are precious few wars we did not start that we should have started - Hitler being the only real exception i can think of? Of all the other dictators around the world that have posed a threat in modern times, whom we did not go to war with, in all those cases hindsight has proven the right choice was not to go to war.

 

But there is one other issue that confounds me? Wars that the west initiates or gets involved in on humanitarian grounds? There is Somalia, Serbia, probably a few i forget and now Libya. I was quite surprised to see how quickly the world community pounced on Gadafi when large numbers of civilians started getting wiped out? And what makes Somalia or Serbia or Lybia different to civilians getting wiped out in North Korea and the west does not invade? I'm utterly confused??

Hehe, Bullies don't start fights with people that will kick there ass.

Also you should look up how many democratically elected leaders were "removed" by the US and installed a dictator that was trade friendly to them.

Start here http://www.tomveatch.com/dictatorships.html and do a little research at the local library.

Humm ... at what point in our / your discussions did Iraq become the aggressor, just asking?

The world community did not have the authority to invade another country or they might have. Besides, Bush 1 was not as stupid as his son and realized the likely outcome. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when the two had this discussion. Geeze … let’s just blame the world community for the actions of the USG, don’t work for me.

Every war ever fought by the American Government was a war of humanitarianism and freedom and democracy. American diplomacy has changed little. Our expansion west was nothing but an ethnic cleansing of the natives. And the Louisiana Purchase neglected to discuss the hundreds of tribes that had lived there for who knows how long. Yep … ethnic cleansing again. I think this was all to educate the savages and force European civility and culture on them. Democracy USG style is never a good thing to be on the receiving end of and is always costly in lives and property. Then of course, we had to teach the Mexicans how costly it was to get between the USG and the west coast. Yep, ethnic cleansing, democratic style. So we stole their land too and kicked them off, just because. If one is inclined to go back in time, well you might be surprised at what the USG has kept out of the school books … but not the archives and reliable records.

Do not tryto come up with all the answers at one time ... you just need to start somewhere and just follow where that leads you. Believe me, nobody can make much sense of all the messes in the world, you and I included.

Before I got too involved in Iraq, I did a lot of research on south and middle America. As I read through your list, well imagine my surprise ... I had investigated many of them, go figure. But there is just so much information on the internet; I don't think anyone needs to separate themselves from their popcorn and chips. I think they just have to have the desire and the constitution to question the status-quo and to be prepared for the results.

Oh didn't you know? Iraq invaded Kuwait, oh but wait, i saw that in the world media, and because America is so good at controlling world media, it must have been America invading Kuwait so that Bush 2 would have a nice foothold position to apply his it's fake list of excuses to invade Iraq.... so i can see how irrelevant it all is to our conversation (Extreme sarcasm alert hahaha).

I will just copy and paste my previous line, i think it works just as well here "Oh didn't you know? Iraq invaded Kuwait, oh but wait, i saw that in the world media, and because America is so good at controlling world media, it must have been America invading Kuwait so that Bush 2 would have a nice foothold position to apply his it's fake list of excuses to invade Iraq.... so i can see how irrelevant it all is to our conversation (Extreme sarcasm alert hahaha)."

I will try and be serious here for a moment and ask, can you honestly tell me any non biased historian worth his salt (from any country you like to choose) would not be able to shoot holes in at least half of what your saying throughout this thread?

But you can establish some basic facts, it is not that hard at all, and you can trust mainstream information (but not with 'absolute' trust) for the most part. It is not compulsory to assume everything is wrong nor is it a wise position to take, all it does is sabotage your integrity and your beliefs when it is totally unnecessary. Because i believe you can easily make a legitimate case for the basic principles of what you say about USG activities but without the 'professor nutcase' side of it!

 

*You should have a little faith and trust in your beliefs instead of sabotaging yourself with unnecessary inaccuracies*

 

Edit: oh now i remember the other thread.... the Fareinhight911 thread, which seems to have disappeared.

 

 

 

Plenty of mistakes to go round no doubt, i even heard that Saddam was put in power by America!

i saw an obscure documentary years ago where they interviewed American soldiers who were helping the Vietnamese communists resist the Japanese during WW2. These soldiers witnessed some odd things including the fact that the Vietnamese communists were sincere in their desire to be allies with the US after WW2 and were basically back stabbed by the US with South Vietnam! I know BoobzTwo would love to see that documentary but i cannot remember the name of it?  

Someone complained so it was moved to https://forums.joeuser.com/408351

There are six member states of the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (CCASG) or Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC).

	Common name	Official name (English)	Official name (Arabic)
	Bahrain	Kingdom of Bahrain	Mamlakat al-Baḥrayn
	Kuwait	State of Kuwait	Dawlat al-Kuwayt
	Oman	Sultanate of Oman	Salṭanat ʻUmān
	Qatar	State of Qatar	Dawlat Qaṭar
	Saudi Arabia	Kingdom of Saudi Arabia	al-Mamlaka al-ʻArabiyya as-Suʻūdiyya
	United Arab Emirates	State of the United Arab Emirates	Dawlat al-Imārāt al-‘Arabīyah al-Muttaḥidah

The big boys club of US backed royal families.

  Show me this on American MSM

 

Saudi and Bahraini police Killed five Protesters, wounded Dozens

people are rising up against the dictatorship and they are being squashed and the US militarty is stationed there with 5th fleet

 

also, what about China and Tibet?

China’s Films Pulled from US Film Festival To Protest Tibet Issue

 

Only revolution in the world to be sparked by Google Earth. http://www.businessinsider.com/bahrain-google-earth-2011-3#-1

Citizens live in dirt poverty under the country's constitution which prevents anyone from owning private property, however the elite do (illegally) own private property and it certainly is billionaire property according to Google Earth.  Another problem is Bahrain is really going above and beyond to oppress the Shiite majority by importing Sunnites from abroad to transform the Shiites into a minority.  In other words they are willing to empty out the state coffers to support all the Sunnite immigrants in their nation and offering financial incentives to move in.

 

That's awesome 

You just have to love pictures and the technical wonders looking at us all. With all the messes in the Middle East, I had no idea conditions were so deplorable. This is an Island nation ... and the beaches are ... unavailable?

It is not a good thing to be supported by the West … in the Middle East. I wonder why they promoted Gadhafi’s ouster in Libya … but when one of their own is involved well … the peasants will feel the lash once more with a little help from their friends.

Don't be too surprised that Saudi Arabia has responded to Bahrain's call for military intervention.  When nations are facing considerable violent upheaval they often resort to importing foreign military assets, usually mercenaries.

I would expect no less I am afraid. How else does a nation survive? It is a morality issue for me, and it is by all means, not restricted here. I believe the indigenous people are more than capable of correcting most of their issues. But western influence in the Middle East will not allow for this. I think there are no good solutions for the people, but an easy one concerning the utilization of the natural resources. Saudi Arabia will not think in this manner but peace has to come or the people will just be persecuted further.