Fahrenheit 9/11

on Dec 07, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 357

Smoothseas, anyone who mouths anything against the USG is immediately labeled a nut or a conspiracy theorist.

A nut is very different from a conspiracy theorist. If I point out someone as a conspiracy theorists, I don't label them as a nut because I do believe that governments are involved in all kinds of secret conspiracies all the time. She is an engineer and I have all kinds of regard for engineers since most of my college buddies are engineers.

My biggest doubt to 9/11 being a USG conspiracy is motive. What do you think the motive would be? As I said earlier beating the war drums could have been done much easier and less costly. So all I can leave to my imagination is that we knew the Trade Center was a high risk target since it was attacked a decade prior and maybe they installed a system for a more controlled demolition if it ever happened again. That is about the only motive I can dig out from my vast imagination but even if that was the case then so be it. I would probably consider it to be a good idea.

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on Dec 07, 2011

Smootseas, I could show much in the way of motivation for the USG but most of it would be labeled as conspiracy shit. However, the first step is coming to an understanding with you yourself that there are those people throughout history who have destroyed much of their own populations as well as the promotion of genocide towards others. Then you have to convince yourself that there is nothing the USG will not do to maintain its power to shape the future of the world. If there is something that prevents Americans from becoming ruthless scourges I sure don't know what it is. Seems like the news is full of people like this all throughout our government and yet people seem to think there are actual limits that we will not cross over ... poppycock I say. You do understand what it means when the government controls the media outlets don’t you? First two that popped up for me in my search were Russia and China…

If you are following me, then it is no great leap of faith to understand that a few thousand lives are a drop in the bucket on a national scale let alone on the world stage. The easiest way to dig into motive here is through an analysis of what happened as a result of 911. We got our wars and we got to kill hundreds of thousands of people that had absolutely nothing to do with 911 in anyone’s book. We are if anything a war based society as in we thrive in one ... any war at all will do just fine. How can you go wrong when you sell arms to both sides, hahaha? And what possible better way could there be to win an unjust war … than to attack people who are not a viable national threat and who are defenseless to American military aggression. Yep destroy their infrastructure so we can rebuild it for them … so they can then destroy it out of spite (I guess) and we can keep rebuilding it for them. Who do you think benefits from all of this? The Afghan or Iraqi people … I think not. But in the end, there are a bunch of rich Muslim and American deviants getting a lot richer as a result of the status quo.

Anyway, once you convince yourself that the USG is capable of such dastardly things (as actively practiced around the world against other people) … motive is much easier to distinguish.

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lulapilgrim

on Dec 07, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 362

If there is something that prevents Americans from becoming ruthless scourges I sure don't know what it is.

I do...it's called follow Christ's command to love one another.

The secular side of that would be something like the tune that goes, He ain't heavy, he's my brother.

........................

BoobzTwo

reply 362

Congressman Ron Paul is the one who most stands out against war.

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on Dec 07, 2011

lulapilgrim

reply 363

The easiest way to dig into motive here is through an analysis of what happened as a result of 911.

And when you actually do that as well as dig into the history of many related things that transpired leading up to and well before 9/11 you may understand that there are people who actually confessed to the planning of the attacks. Maybe you should spend some time looking up names like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and and Ramzi Yousef. That would be a good place to start, however there is far more information about the 9/11 attacks than just that. The 9/11 commission report is another good read. You may not believe everything in the report because it was a product of the USG however there is plenty of information in it from people who are not the elected officials who lie to us day in and day out. You are doing what ideologues do. You come up with a theory (or take somebody else's) and look for information to support it and most importantly dismiss every piece of information,including much written testimony and court documentation that leads to a very different conclusion. The motive of the 9/11 attacks was formed prior to the attack not afterwards so dismissing all the information we have of things that transpired before the attack is a huge mistake on your part. Yes the investigation was done after the attack but the motive was conceived long before it ever happened. At least eight years before it happened many would say since that is the first time it was attacked by the same organization,some of the people actually confessing to have been involved with the planning of both attacks.

Do you know anything about the history of Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden along with the two above-named mentioned above? If you do you will understand the motives behind much of what transpired. Do you know anything about the history of our foreign policy regarding the Middle East? If you know the history of our foreign policy actions in the region you may understand why some people chose to fight wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They may or may not have been good reasons, and the results may or may not have accomplished the goals, which may or may not reflect what people were told, but that is just the way the secretive nature of foreign policy goes sometimes. Elected officials may have lied about the real reasons for those actions but it is probably because the real reasons are sometimes best left unsaid. US foreign policy is rooted around US interest and not that of other countries so sometimes it is best left to speculation.

The motives of Bin Laden against the US as a whole are actually rooted upon US troop presence in Saudi Arabia. He said it himself long before 9/11 was ever conceived. I have been given no credible reason to disbelieve that, and several actions that have transpired since he stated it lead me to believe that he meant what he said.

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on Dec 08, 2011

Smoothseas, By the way, the comment you quoted was mine, not Lula’s. I thought we were discussing the mechanics of toppling buildings here so have a heart before you move onto something different as I don’t mind talking about some of the people involved. I am sure there are quite a few people who rightfully (and wrongly) despise the USG here and abroad … so what. How many modern countries could have engineered the 911 attacks nearly as well as these radical Muslims seemed to do all on their own? We are using the most sophisticated equipment and advanced security systems, we have instant worldwide communications, unbelievable satellite capabilities and possess the most modern and destructive munitions the Earth has ever known. We have the capability to strike almost anywhere in the Middle East within hours at worst … and they are passing messages by hand??? We had more than ample warning from a multitude of countries months before 911 … and NORAD was off playing war games … you know what that was all about right? So who is responsible for the events of 911 … the people in the planes or the people who cleared the way for them? Look, we can play the he said she said game and get nowhere … or not. I could just as easily ask if you researched the relationships between the Bush family and Osama bin Laden and his American Companies etc. etc.… but I won’t because this is silly. Cessna training my arse … that is like learning to drive a Mini and then given a fully outfitted 18 wheeler and told to drive an obstacle course. Have you listened to what the people who trained some of them had to say about their competence … with a Cessna? As far as I am concerned, the truth about 911 is about as settled as AGW. If you are happy with the status quo … great … I am not is all.

I found many interesting things here … http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essayairdefense

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on Dec 08, 2011

BoobzTwo

Smoothseas, By the way, the comment you quoted was mine, not Lula’s.

Don't know how that got messed up.....Oh well.

BoobzTwo

I thought we were discussing the mechanics of toppling buildings here

I'm not an architect or demolition expert (or well read in either) so I can't look at the issue from that point of view. All I can do is see where the data comes from that supports such things and most that I have seen is from skeptic sites.

BoobzTwo

the Bush family and Osama bin Laden and his American Companies etc. etc.…

BoobzTwo

if you researched the relationships between the Bush family and Osama bin Laden and his American Companies etc. etc.… but I won’t because this is silly.

It's not silly because when you look at it, the relationship was actually between papa Bush and Bin Laden's father. Osama became a Saudi exile because he spoke out against the Saudi Royal family. He was stripped of his citizenship and thrown out of the country. As far as the Bush family and their companies, they had big CIA connections, but that does not make them evil. Many companies hire CIA people to work within their ranks and some of them are fronts others are not. That does not make them evil. This country has reasons to do some of those things. Sometimes the results don't always justify the means or meet the goal but that is the way it is. Shit happens and sometimes things go wrong and sometimes people think up stupid things that have poor results. To err is human. I don't defend Bush for many of his decisions because I think he made many poor choices but I do not think he is evil. I simply think some of his ideology is flawed and many of the decisions he made as president were bad decisions. It's not one side or the other for me on every issue, he did some things that will end up being good in the long run and some that will be bad.

BoobzTwo

I found many interesting things here … http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essayairdefense[/quote]

A lot of that I've seen elsewhere. Much of it I believe is true. Always keep in mind: Politicians lie all the time. They do it to pander votes, they do it discredit policies that favor others interests and to defend policies that favor their own constituents. They also do it to cover their arses as well. So in regards to that article. When the administration said they had no idea that planes could be used for such a terrible thing they were covering their arses. Sure that is wrong but I really don't know of many if any politicians that would not have made the same claim. Politicians are often liars, crooks, and hypocrites but the guy on the other side of the fence is more often than not the same and sometimes worse.

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on Dec 09, 2011

Smoothseas, Listen to your own words ... "Politicians lie all the time" ... "Politicians are often liars, crooks, and hypocrites" ... this would be a better place to start I think. Do good people doing the morally right things have any reason to lie ... even to cover their asses? Do good people fabricate and mislead their nation into unjust wars? Do good people obfuscate the searches for more complete answers and better explanations? “They do it to pander votes, they do it discredit policies that favor others interests and to defend policies that favor their own constituents.” You are so caviler when you say this kind of stuff; like we have to accept it just because that is the way we do business. I don’t think so … I think this shit is a very large part of the problem. We are not talking about trivial matters where face is being saved … we are talking about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people (not just 2,977), the destruction of the national infrastructure of non-participants (in 911) and this is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a little more than a George Allen’s “macaca” moment here. Just think of all the American casualties … if Americans are all that interest you. I have not seen you so excusatory for the USG before is all. Don’t they do enough of that nonsense on their own? Personally, I do not think Bush is any smarter than Obama and I do not think either of them are smart enough to actually be (have been) leading the way … they are little more than party spokesmen and neither are whizz-bang when off their prompters. Just because the world is a stage … doesn’t mean we have to accept the status quo. If I were to start pointing fingers here, I would rather be discussing Rumsfeld and Chaney but that is just me. You know Smoothseas; comments like yours make it evident why it is difficult to try and make the USG story hold water which is why I suggested we look to how things turned out and then go back in time to figure out how we really got from point A to point B. I for one came to many false conclusions as things were progressing I am ashamed to say, but looking backwards at the news clips sheds a whole new light on the matter. At least it did for me.

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Daiwa

on Dec 09, 2011

BoobzTwo

Do good people fabricate and mislead their nation into unjust wars?

Not usually. Unless you consider Hitler to have been a 'good' person.

Does your question have anything to do with 9/11? No.

369

on Dec 09, 2011

Certainly not Daiwa nothing at all … I just thought it was a clever and covert way to introduce my real hero Hitler. I knew you were the only one astute enough to discover the real hidden truth ... I am exposed ... bah humbug! Hahaha

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lulapilgrim

on Dec 09, 2011

Just curious....

Are the US wars with Iraq and other Middle East countries just or unjust wars and why?

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on Dec 09, 2011

Depends on one's point of view I imagine. I will speak for Iraq for now. What is it that can be considered just? Neither the Iraq government nor the Iraq people did anything to the US and were never a threat to our security. They were not involved in 911 although … Saddam’s name was brought up on 911 by Bush himself as in how we can connect it with him. They had no WMD’s, there was no yellow cake, there was no Al-Qaida connection and little of those things that led to war were true … but it changed nothing. My vote is UNJUST

372

on Dec 09, 2011

BoobzTwo

You are so caviler when you say this kind of stuff; like we have to accept it just because that is the way we do business.

I am not cavalier. nor do I like or accept the way the government does business. I live my own life by a very different set of standards. But it is what it is and I am not in the ruling class so I am rather powerless to change any of it. That is simply how I see it. I am certain that I do not know every reason why our government has done many of the things it has done but I can only work with the information that I have seen. Our country has done many things since it was formed that I don't like and that I find to be extremely immoral, but I can't change what has happened I can only look at it for what it is and analyze it from the information that is available to me. I do not in any way infer that you or anyone has to accept anything. I speak for myself only.

BoobzTwo

and then go back in time to figure out how we really got from point A to point B

And when you do that you will see how we got from point A to point B and you will see that this did not start with the prior administration it started long before that. Point A occurred a long time ago. You cannot isolate the issue to only what occurred during the prior administration. I do not agree with how the prior administration dealt with the situation but I can't change that. I cannot change history I can only learn from it and go forward.

You may think point A is 9/11 and point B is Iraq but I will tell you that War in Iraq had very little if anything to do with 9/11 aside from the fact that they are both consequences of our overall Middle East Foreign Policy which goes back to at least WWII. The actions the government took in Afghanistan and those in Iraq are two very different things. One of the motives for invading Afghanistan may have been 9/11 but it is not the only motive, it is most likely one of several that none of us are privy to. I am sure I do not know and will probably never know all of the motives. And the same goes for the actions taken in Iraq.

BoobzTwo

I do not think Bush is any smarter than Obama and I do not think either of them are smart enough to actually be (have been) leading the way

It has nothing to do with who is smarter or whether either is smart enough to lead the way. Obama was left with what Bush left for him to deal with, just as Bush was left with what Clinton left him and so on and so forth. What you are left with has more to do with what you do then how you wish things were or what you wish you could do or what you wished the world looked like.

BoobzTwo

Do good people doing the morally right things have any reason to lie ... even to cover their asses?

Have you never lied, or spun the truth, or withheld information to protect someone in your family? Have you never seen a situation where spinning the truth results in a more moral outcome than what not have spinning the truth might have? I am fortunate. I have not faced many situations where I have had to make such decisions, and I can easily choose to do the moral thing because my decisions affect very few people in measured ways. When you are faced with decisions that effect millions of people in very different and substantial ways you are facing much more than the decisions you or I make in our daily lives. I do not say this to justify any actions that our government or any single politician has taken, simply to say that whether I agree or disagree with them I often understand why they do deceive others.

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lulapilgrim

on Dec 09, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 371

My vote is UNJUST

I agree.

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http://seekingalpha.com/article/193859-will-iraq-s-oil-production-increase

on Dec 09, 2011

BoobzTwo

reply 371

but it changed nothing

It certainly did change something. It changed the course of Iraqi Oil production. Our National Security interest in the Middle East is to promote stability in the region.Stability means many things one of which is stability in the oil supplies to global economies, in particular our own economy as well as the economies of our allies. Here is a decent article partially about the history of Iraqi Oil production that was published last year.

BoobzTwo

reply 371

My vote is UNJUST

Is it unjust? It very well could be and it was certainly unjust to the innocent people who have died and struggled because of mans thirst for oil. How much of that thirst are you guilty for? At what point in life did you realize that people were getting killed so that you could put a tiger in your tank? How many people did Sadaam Hussein kill or force to suffer because he wanted to enjoy the fruits of their labor and the wealth of his countries oil? Is it more or less than our government and our economic system is responsible for?

How many people has our government and economic system put food on the table for? Certainly many more then Sadaam Hussein has, one would think.

Get a grip on your hatred for the US government. They have certainly made a lot of decisions which have effected many people negatively in this country and abroad and I certainly wish we had better people running this country, however if you want to see what is truly evil you are best to look elsewhere.

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