And that is why a while back I said analyze the history not the aftermath. Start by looking at how the Middle East was divided up at the conclusion of WWII and go from there. Foreign policy is a chess game with no predetermined path. It is a series of moves that changes from one administration to another and is guided by many factors. Our government actually prefers foreign dictatorships at times depending on the overall circumstances and when you delve through history you will see that what you call a "hard on" was at one time a "love fest". As the balance of power in the region changed so did our foreign policy. Bush Sr. actually warned his son about what he was proposing to do well before the decision was made to do it. Many of the reasons are the very same reasons Bush Sr. decided not to remove Hussein during the first Gulf War.

No point Daiwa … I now know better than to try and get any points by you hahaha.

 

Smoothseas: Are we done prewar now … I just don’t know what else to say about it? But for motive … how good is going to war for America and where in the world would the USG want a war (control, power) other than the Middle East (oil)? You know, it is not any one thing alone that is wrong with the 911 status quo … although any one should be enough to discredit things. The following clip just brings up a difficulty I have had from the beginning.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

Other than a search for some better answers (and some justice), 9/11 itself is just one of many catalysts that has caused people both here and around the world to distrust the USG and rightly so. Our government has made no bones about things now. They have empowered themselves to go anywhere, get anyone and do WEIT’s to satisfy themselves. We have been capitalistically and militaristically raping third world countries at least as far back as Reagan (just don’t want to go back further right now, but it does). We have set ourselves up just like the RCC … do as we say or die.

I can't answer how good because I personally think it was a bad decision and we are going to end up isolated in the world because of many of the decisions that have been made. If I want to analyze what the USG does it is all about motive not morals. Keep in mind globally it is not about oil it is about economic dominance, and in Iraq it is not all about Iraqi oil. In the middle east for example there is always the balance of power and influence amongst the various countries there. In the first Gulf War we were protecting the flow of Kuwaiti oil supplies. So when you look at the recent action it is not only or predominantly about Iraqi oil. There is also the balance of power and influence in the region. I think the war will end up being a bad decision because now we have a situation which could foster a civil war within Iraq and also, because the war was so poorly executed. we wound up with Iran gaining more and more influence within Iraq and hence it made Iran a bigger problem than it was.

That is the opinion of a single pilot. What about all the other pilots in the world? Who's is to say what he is saying is even true? You can plug a set of coordinates into the autopilot and it will bring the plane right to the destination. Commercial airliners can even be landed these days using automation so the entire video clip is easily disputed.

 

 

Is that what happened? I think you miss the whole point of the clip. At least I offered an example and you offered an opinion that “Who is to say what he is saying is even true?” … maybe this guy (instant doubt hahaha) for one and maybe the other fifty people at the site I referenced … some argument you got there??? An autopilot landing at an equipped airport is one thing; you know this transponder speaking to that transponder adjusting things several hundred times per second. But if you think an “auto pilot’ could have performed observed maneuvering (???) … what command does one give the auto pilot to turn a plane going through maneuvers they weren’t designed to withstand and to land near the top of two side by side buildings … without transponders, just wondering?  I at least offered something … you offered hoopla back?

You offered up someone else's opinion. Watch the clip again again. It's the guys opinion.  It is easily thrown in the trash just by knowing how an autopilot system works. Have you ever used an automobile GPS system? They are accurate enough to plot you within the width of a road. There are even more accurate units called differential GPS.

Your accepting the mans information without doing any background research. Can you prove the planes were exceeding the G-Force he espoused or doing maneuvers they weren't designed for or are you simply taking his word for it because he says he is a pilot? Did the planes do such maneuvers? There is no film evidence of such things. Did you look for information about the actual blackbox data to confirm that this guy isn't just spouting BS out of his butt?

Smoothseas, why is it incumbent for me to prove everything ... when all you have to do is mention something and we are supposed to take your surmise at face value and accept it. You obviously didn't visit the link I provided or you would have at least understood this pilot was not the only one. How stupid it would be for me to quote all 50 of them for you … why don’t you actually look for yourself … instead of charging me to do it for you. And I called their expertise into the equation because I don’t have any piloting skills (besides Microsoft PC experience, hahaha) so I expected more from you than you expert aviation knowledge to just dismiss what he had to say out of hand  … why? You have a nasty habit if accusing people (at least me) of just spouting things spontaneously (I guess) and then you accuse me of no previous research … you are starting to sound like  Daiwa who considers himself the epitome of knowledge … just ask him hahaha.

This is so wrong on so many fronts. First you assume I accept this man's word when in fact I only stated the following:Doesn't sound like much of a commitment from me ... does it to you? Then you accuse me of not doing any research and I have to wonder from whence that tidbit became apparent to you … what would even prompt someone to make such a ridiculous statement? And just so we understand each other, all I did was call your attention to the clip and was hoping that his expertise would at least slow an abject dismissal. And all of this nonsense of yours just because he expressed something that I couldn’t understand for the past ten years, go figure. I was actually looking for an opinion on the subject matter but I guess I expected way too much, sorry. Was this another theory of mine ... how could you even know that much hehehe.?

http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

PS; I don't see much need to explain anything to you at this time when you treat me with such disrespect. I am not anyone's enemy here and I do not appreciate being treated like one. If you cannot come to terms with a different opinion ... then it is your problem, not mine. Here is a commercial to calm everyone, hahaha.

Got milk???

 

 

You take things too personally. I was commenting about the posted clip and then asked questions? Asking questions is asking questions not making accusations.

If you think disagreement is disrespect than you're best not to explain anything.

Autopilot my ass! Just because people without experience feel they actually "KNOW" how an autopilot works, doesn't mean very much if they really don't know. GPS and automobiles are your ‘proof’, hahaha. Maybe you could explain how this marvelous thing works then. Asking questions, yea right: "Why did the pilot come to this conclusion?", "What was his expertise (as opposed to ours (mine anyway)?" and “Did he actually fly two of the planes used on 9/11?” are reasonable questions. And since you told me your ‘questions’ were just “food for thought”, I didn’t see a need to directly answer them. What I find interesting is that I actually produced an “expert” opinion” and you produced your own. Strangely enough, all your ‘opinions’ are just the way it is and all my ‘opinions’ are foolish fodder for dissection. Is there something to be accomplished here (by me) then as I am inept at researcher, I only use expert testimony (as opposed to self-importance) which seems to be foolhardy in the eyes of some … and I still never committed myself to his man’s “expert’ opinion” … but all I had to do was bring it up and it “became mine” I suppose. I have to wonder why they even have pilots anymore with their ace in the hole … the super AUTOPILOT, hahaha. Wonder why the terrorists living in their caves took so long to figure that one out. OMG … how are we to defend ourselves now that the secret is out, I wonder indeed. We have to destroy all the miraculous autopilot thingamabobs or we have to dominate the world … what would you choose, hehehe.  We know what the USG chose…

I obviously believe 9/11 couldn’t have been accomplished alone by the cave dwelling miscreants from the Middle East. So without you telling me, I am forced to guess how you feel. Maybe this would be more productive if you placed your cards on the table so I can know (too) what it is we are trying (and failing) to discuss here. I have tried to assign the USG story to you only because you argue (questions, yea right) against everything I say on this subject and everyone I attempt to use for corroborating evidence is apparently as stupid as I am … a hell of a predicament for me (under these conditions) don’t you think. This is about all you are going to get from me until you take a more reasonable approach at communicating.

Is this your idea of "asking questions"? I have to assume you have a computer with internet access so why are you asking me these things? Obviously you don’t like this poor fellow any better than you do me … and you don’t know anything of consequence about either of us.  It sounds like you may be the expert the USG has been looking for to put these lying and cheating theorists in their proper place. With your level of conviction … why in the world would you need to question me about anything … wouldn’t it be much simpler if you just told me why I am wrong on everything … got to love this nonsense … and yes I do believe this person as well as the others listed on my reference (you are still trying to pin this ONE expert opinion as my only justification … is it really that difficult to click your mouse button … or am I charged with doing your 'due diligence' for you too?

 

 

Smoothseas, in your patriotic fervor, you seem to be willing to give the 9/11 miscreants TBOTD (why???) but you harangue the American pilots who do have the knowledge and experience … why again, just for an argument? I am looking for answers from you as the ‘questions’ you ‘ask’ do not appear sincere. Oh I forgot hahaha, they had “The Autopilot(s)” so they didn’t need to know what they were doing … now I understand???

This is not at all how I wanted this thread to progress … but that’s life I suppose. When I first started this article, I had it firmly in my mind that the Muslims could not have accomplished all they were credited with alone (and still am) … there are just too many different problem areas. And because of that, my approach was never intended to support the official USG view and in truth, they don’t seem to want or need my blessings. We can sit and argue back and forth on every issue individually and accomplish just what we have … nothing of consequence. The gist was supposed to be that there are just too many problem areas as evidenced from an after the fact evaluation of the main points of contention. It is no one thing that makes this conspiracy different from most others.

I am convinced I have the “go to the moon or not” theory locked up now (I know!!!) … but that all hinged on just one thing … did we get there or not? 9/11 theory is dependent on many more questionable fronts. Any one front should be convincing (on-its-own) but the big picture doesn’t even develop until you look at the scope and the multitude of problems.

It is not just ‘the buildings fell ‘improperly’, ‘the dust particles are too small’, ‘the open doorway’ to NYC (American) skies, the ‘inadequate pilot training and experience’, the FACT that no other buildings ever collapsed in this manor, the obvious USG cover-ups and their disinformation and not just withholding the truth but altering it. It’s not just the fluky stuff like finding an undamaged passport at ground zero right after being told that the fire was so intense that it totally destroyed all the titanium parts of the plane (???). It is not just the relationship the USG has with Saudi Arabia, the hatred our government has for third world countries and in particular (now anyway) the Middle East, our addiction to oil and where that oil is located, our strategic malevolent desire to control everything and everyone in the world or the inability of our “chosen” enemies” to even defend themselves from American aggression and domination. This is a short compilation of problem areas off the top of my head … there is much more.

It always amazes me when I chat with people who seem to hate and despise the actions of the USG (check the like them polls) and spend much of their time badmouthing the USG and their other decision making skills … but change the subject to 9/11 and miraculously the USG somehow became truthful for the first time in decades, hahaha. This is just like a theology debate where the USG is divinely right and everyone else has to prove everything while the USG just has to open its perpetually mouth and speakith (this instance only of course) and nothing besides the flowery truth follows. I can handle this warped sense of USG excellence (hahaha) but it is the next part that is problematical. They (and their adherents) will not entertain any other ‘opinion’ period … WHY??? If I bring in someone controversial like Moore, the attack is always against the messenger and not the message … a sign of lower intelligence I might add. If I bring in an expert, well it is ‘just not allowed’ and it is off after the messenger once again. And of course, my opinions are right in the gutter with the rest of the conspirators (which is a misnomer in itself) lies rest.

myfist0 HELP … I just cannot do stupidity indefinitely???

The little pilot clip was interesting, but it's another case of claiming what actually happened 'couldn't have happened'.

About 3 years ago, I 'flew' a major airline 737 simulator, spending about 90 minutes in the left seat.  No prior pilot training or experience whatsoever, unless you count playing computer warbird flight sims on occasion.  Within about 30 minutes I was making smooth takeoffs, making varying approaches and sticking smooth landings.  I had no difficulty performing a variety of 'airborne' maneuvers including joining up in formation with other aircraft, something my pilot friend, who ran the sim, says is inherently difficult even for trained pilots.  He told me, and he was quite sincere, that I handled the 'aircraft' as well as or better than some of his junior pilots and asked me, only half in jest, not to let on to others how easy it was.  He also related that the tolerances built into commercial aircraft performance characteristics are large, that they had big 'margins of error' and that the aircraft are 'very forgiving' by design.  He earns his paycheck by knowing and following procedures designed to ensure safe flight, knowing how avoid mistakes and how to manage the aircraft when something breaks or goes wrong.  (Note to real pilots out there - I know it's a lot more than that, just trying to nutshell it).

Once an aircraft has been trimmed for flight, steering the thing is quite simple and I personally have no doubt those dudes, who had had real training in the physics of flight and basic navigation, had actually flown and had spent months planning course settings, etc., could have gotten from Boston to New York and slammed those poor souls on board into the Twin Towers.

Now you have not just that pilot's opinion, but a non-pilot's opinion.

It's also interesting that you think Michael Moore has a 'message'.  If you're going to argue that we must perforce give credence to the opinions of 'experts' like the 'pilot', what is Moore's expertise in any area having anything remotely to do with 9/11?

Daiwa, what a surprise! Thanks (I think) for at least taking me seriously for a change. But, I started out with an expert of my own (I sure hope he is, cannot find much about him though). If I am not mistaken, he was talking about the Pentagon bombing not the twin towers. I will stipulate that those attacks (towers) could have been flown by novices with adequate training (I’m sure that has not been established though) but there are other problems with this idea than just driving the plane. I am well known for how quickly and easily pick up new things ... not many people are so blessed IMO. I am what is referred to as a Jack of all Trades ... I know a lot of stuff about a lot of things but am master of none (because I haven’t invested enough time and effort), bummer that part. I would call your attention to the difference between simulator training' and actually piloting an aircraft. If things like this are so simple, why do the pilots around Cecil Field here actual use hands on training year around and I know they don’t do it for fun and I assume that they already know what they are doing? You know we lost the transponders on those planes?  What does your experience tell you about the maneuvering at the Pentagon … and amateur piloting?

Airplane hijackers on the up-and-up (so to speak) would (should) have had a great concern for NRAD after all it is touted as the best of its kind in the world. I would think time would have been one of the most critical spoilers for them … and they should have acted accordingly but there was no observable indication that time was even a concern … like they had all the time in the world, go figure. I don’t have all those answers … that’s what discussions are for. I don’t have a problem with being proved wrong, but I am pretty tired now of opponents dismissing my opinions out of hand without further ado or explanations. And further if one is actually prone to believe the USG for all their wisdom, accuracy and honesty well … this would be a good place to go to define ‘insanity’.

http://www.public-action.com/911/4flights.html

What does Moore need experience for ... an opinion, a message or a theory? How many film producers do you know who are experts with their masterpieces? Are directors of psychotically insane murders and serial killers … are you intimating that they can only do this through a personal expertise in psychology??? And if you haven’t even (?) watched the movie … from whence does your insight come … the mouths of other equally informed people such as yourself? Personally I don’t care what you “creed” as expertise (take it or leave it, who cares besides you? … and I never said Moore even had common sense let alone an expert opinion about anything. Why do you try to manipulate stuff like this??? How am I supposed to answer such nonsense? Are you also expressing abject denial of the pilots credibility … based on what???

What does Moore need experience for ... an opinion, a message or a theory? How many film producers do you know who are experts with their masterpieces? Are directors of psychotically insane murders and serial killers … are you intimating that they can only do this through a personal expertise in psychology??? And if you haven’t even (?) watched the movie … from whence does your insight come … the mouths of other equally informed people such as yourself? Personally I don’t care what you “creed” as expertise (take it or leave it, who cares besides you? … and I never said Moore even had common sense let alone an expert opinion about anything. Why do you try to manipulate stuff like this??? How am I supposed to answer such nonsense? Are you also expressing abject denial of the pilots credibility … based on what??? ... on his politics, personality, looks ... on what?

I am not arguing anything yet … just simply trying to show a clip (mistake #1 I guess). Cannot seem to get over this seemingly insurmountable hurdle though, go figure. Is there a list of acceptable experts I can look at?