"My heart tells me that people are inherently good honest folk, but my experience has sadly proven otherwise.

Would you say that people are mostly good?"

The only way I can answer this is from my biblical worldview because that's what I believe is truth. 

It sounds as tho you are hoping like mad that you're wrong but your experience tells you otherwise.  The experience you speak of is evidence that people are NOT inherently good folk but inherently sinful and selfish.  You must look at the evidence.

We argue and fight from birth.  Infants show displeasure when they don't get what they want or if something is taken away.  Little children cry, fight and throw tantrums when they don't get their own way.  We start out fighting over baby toys, then bigger toys, then positions on a team then a position at work, then the PTA or politics.  Friends fight, siblings fight, husbands and wives fight, businesses fight and on and on all the way to nation fighting against nation sometimes to the point of war. 

The source of all this fighting is the same.  Man's depraved, egotistic, selfish nature.  The truth is that man is basically and naturally sinful and that the heart of his sinfulness is self-will.  From birth to death the natural inclination of every person is to look out for #1.  It's all what I want.  At the heart of sin is the ego, the "I."  Self-centeredness is the root of man's depravity that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. 

There cannot possibly be harmony in a group whose desires, goals, purposes and ideals are generated by their own egos. 

James (in the first century) asked this question to believers back in his day..  "what is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you?  Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?  You lust and do not have, so you commit murder.  And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel." 

The cause for all conflicts and fighting is selfish desire so my answer is no, people are NOT mostly good. 

But then again, it depends on who you are using as your plumb line. 

KFC, thanks for the review I guess? I had hoped to start a conversation about the movie but, oh well … You might have started out with your take on the actual movie … like have you even seen it, etc. It would help here if you had actually watched the movie … is kind of the reason I listed it under Movie and NOT RELIGION. … Oh well?

I am not really hoping for anything here, I kind of was just relating some general things about the movie without giving away too much, and made the mistake of actually asking a question (I should have known better). It was hypothetical and meant more for me that anyone else, go figure … so here we go

“We argue and fight from birth.”      We try and bring order to our minds (not our souls) but the young, only know of a few ways to express their dissatisfaction, is all. People are at some point supposed to grow up and act as adults … most just do not. I may have started life out cranky, but I have learned that there is little to be gained fighting … besides a fight, have fun..

Man's depraved, egotistic, selfish nature.  The truth is that man is basically and naturally sinful and that the heart of his sinfulness is self-will.       I disagree with this. Man is born innocent and free (as he was meant to be) and that includes religion too. So I would submit that people are inherently good but are polluted (often by those that claim to love them) as they grow up. Self-will is my life silly … I am an atheist???

There cannot possibly be harmony in a group whose desires, goals, purposes and ideals are generated by their own egos. How is it that you can so comfortably placing people in groups … there can be harmony, but not with the religions (and so many more socialists) of the world WHO ALL DICTATE god’s will (or theirs), purpose and desire and hating each other (and seemingly most everyone else too) all the while … You do not seem to be missing the debauchery in our government much, but you see no hand of the church in any of it … and I do.

The cause for all conflicts and fighting is selfish desire so my answer is no, people are NOT mostly good. But then again, it depends on who you are using as your plumb line. You have told me (someone did?) that you like a good fight … selfish desire, I wonder. As far as plumb lines are concerned, I am more than satisfied with mine too, SO WHAT.

I am sure James was a nice fella … so what? I hope he had a good life and all. ???

Could we discuss the movie now … please.

Well I went for the question that was asked.  Sorry about that.  Thought you wanted an answer.  I haven't seen the movie.  I don't usually watch rated R movies (with a few exceptions) which usually have glorified sex, violence or vulgar language that I'm just not that into.   

of course.  I understand.  You are doing exactly what you should be doing as an atheist.   As a Christian we are called to be self-less, putting others ahead of ourselves.  Can you imagine what the world would be like if we all did that?  Christ was our example, showing us the lead and we are "supposed" to follow.   Sadly, not many do.  Therefore, the mess we're in today. 

Maybe more later.  No time. 

KFC  

of course.  I understand.  You are doing exactly what you should be doing as an atheist ... this is where I start to have trouble? I do not understand your reference to "what I should be doing as an atheist? I am just me, I think, I analyze, I postulate ... but I do not know what it is you think I am supposed to do BECAUSE I an atheist. I am just me. I have no plans of conquest or domination and I have no desire at all to change ANYONE. So I am confused and disheartened by all the things (especially concerning children) you all have accused me of? I know it stems from your religious research, so how am I supposed to look at that nonsense (it is you know ... it is bad stuff). If I commit a crime, get me as is right ... but DO NOT sit in judgment over me, you do not have that right and you know it ... so stop. And DO NOT presume I (ME) fits into any of your models because I do not ... I am unique, I am free, for whatever that is worth to you, and I will not be categorized. ... I AM ME and nothing more ... and I am actually happy ...

but you've already categorized yourself many times giving yourself a title of atheist.  You mentioned being self willed to which I replied "of course, you are doing exactly what you should be doing as an atheist."  That is, you are exerting your self will instead of God's will.  That is exactly what an atheist would do. 

There's a saying, a dog barks because that's what a dog is supposed to do.  So why do we complain?  That's what I would say to Christians who complain about non-Christian behavior from non-Christians.  They are only doing what they are doing because that's what they are born to do. 

As a Christian, I am NOT to be self-willed but "God's will be done."  So I take myself off the throne and remember that the throne is God's seat, not mine. 

KFC:

I cannot help you when you classify me, I can only classify myself and as far as I (ME) am concerned, my decision removed me from competition, but you refuse to believe me, not my problem sorry.

It is not a matter of understanding; you just do not want to acknowledge. YOU have categorized me, it is not self-inflicted. All I ever claimed was that I do not believe in god the way you do, nothing more, nothing less. I have been INFORMED that you people actually study atheism, I suppose so you can arm yourselves for battle. I do not study atheism (I wouldn’t even if there was something to study (Is there (?)) And I do not know what there could possibly be to study that could be applied to me, the individual, other than my decision. My self-definition is pretty straight forward and can be found in most dictionaries, nothing less, nothing more (and there were no directions on how I was supposed to become hateful, vindictive and well, hell on wheels). I do not want to read whatever you do because it cannot be accurate or true ... because it does not apply to me and you have placed me there ... simple logic to me.

You know what has been happening was not of my choosing (you HAVE to know that!). I used slurs like dummy, silly, ignorant (several more I am sure) etc. which seemed appropriate because you couldn’t seem to grasp this one simple idea.

Your slanders went like this: demented, crybaby, sissy, cannot defend self, ignorant, know nothing, incapable of the truth, no understanding of reality (((???))), needs anger management, only knows how to attack and has the church under the bulls eye. These are all your classifications and presumptions and I was to operate under these conditions, how?

If I argue, I am wrong because I am always perceived to be opposing god’s word. When I do not argue, I am wrong because I do not believe what I say. When I agree with you, I am still somehow attacking the church. This is NOT how to communicate.

In a recent post I made (cannot remember who to or where), It was taken as a surprise because I do not believe in infanticide and am somehow on the their side of the fence on this one (I don’t do fences, you guys do); I was told this is not the aberrant behavior expected from someone like me and is unusual. The fact that I was a practicing Catholic (among others) earlier in life should have at least told you that I understand much more than I am being given credit for and it should have tempered some of your harshness and demeaning language, But it didn’t. You cannot get past the word and there’s seemingly no way to remove myself from your group simply because YOU will not let me out. Don’t make much sense to me, go figure

This movie is a good example of the human condition. You hear about these things all the time (if you watch world news) and I don't think you could ever say it is one thing or another it is usually a whole bunch of things wrong. Alot of the time the people who profit from these things never see or comprehend what is actually happening.

This has occurred every time somebody who can't protect themselves has something of value to the outside world. This occurred with spices, rubber, precious metals, gemstones , base metals, oil, rare earths, land, and most importantly water.

It is a sad and terrible thing that occurs everyday and as the earth over populates and food and fresh water become  harder and harder to come by there is going to be much more of this.

The question is who is in the wrong? 1)The actual people coming in and physically taking the items? 2)The people who are ordering and paying the thugs? 3)The people profiting from the item? 4)The people who pay for the item or need it? 5)The people who can't defend themselves?

This is a big problem that is near impossible to over come because everyone (besides the people being abused) gets something they want or need out of it.

When I bought my wife's engagement ring I made sure to get a diamond that wasn't a blood diamond. As far as I know I got a Canadian Ice Diamond with a little maple leaf etched into it on the side. It could be a blood diamond with a Maple Leaf etched into the side of it? It was also about 30-40% more because it wasn't a diamond that could have come out of a conflict.

It is a nasty subject but it is one that needs to be talked about.

agree with above... well said.... re Canadian diamonds ...

and my take on earlier comments re: religion in American life (KFC):  Yes, and the Untied Fruit company (dole?) jury rigged an Marine invasion of the independent, sovereign county of Hawaii, and enslaved many of its citizens so American (US) plantations (cheaper pineapples and sugar cane) could be created by 'entrepreneurs.'  Christians were there to missionize the poor hawaiians.... 

The West has done this repeatedly, and continues to do it to many peoples and countries.  In much of South America, capitalism is almost always associated with another word:  "savage."  

We don't have to examine the treatment of American Indian tribes at the hands (and long arms) of the European Americans.  Nor look to deeply into how many children were treated in their "boarding schools."   - the real truth is not mentioned very often - because it is truly obscene.  (Many were, at times, 'unofficial' child brothels for the use of the ruling faith.)  

And its not about conformity - because the Cherokee tribe TOTALLY adopted European / American living style, living in towns, written language, newspapers, etc.  and they were still repeatedly dispossessed and given small pox presents by the US government.  

Least you think westerners have a monopoly on this behavior - just look around - no monopoly on this score, every faith, when it has political power uses it (and the accompanying sword) to expend their 'faith.'.  

I wish the idea of humans having a sinful nature based on Christian fundamentalist (bible believing / evangelical, etc) doctrine were true - makes the solution so simple.  But history has shown that each of these holocausts, and systematic oppressions of a less power people/nation/grouping has almost always been both justified by the predominate Christian faith, AND gone hand in hand with their missionaries...

Remember, Martin Luther, founder of Lutheranism, (a good Christian in many ways, and the 'igniter' of the reformation) also became the patron saint of Nazi ideology.  His book about Jews was repeatedly used to justify Nazi treatment of Jews, up to and including the Holocaust.  The night of broken glass, the night the Nazi brown shirts organized a nationwide attack, burning, and destruction of most Synagogues in Germany was scheduled for Martin Luther's birthday.   

....whether it be the slavery imposed on Hawaiians, or on the pre-colombian peoples ripped from their homes, ....  en-mass and made slave-miners in the gold and silver mines of the Americans, (but also converted to Jesus) .... or the Africans enslaved in the US and central America (US zone of economic colonies).  And, even today, the 'bible believing / evangelical / missionizing Christians generally tend to side, politically, with the rich and powerful in the USA.  Generally, they prefer "..the poor you have with you always..." to the repeated cry of the prophets:  "Do justly, love mercy...'   '.. plead for the widow and the orphan..."   etc.  Simon and Garfunkel sang the truth...  Missionizing Christians are big on charity - brushing the crumbs off their tables for the poor, but they oppose addressing the root causes of systemic poverty, systemic injustice, and systemic economic inequality.   One sad commentary on this is that when Martin Luther King and his associates were campaigning to lift some of the oppression from Americans of African descent living in the USA, very few while Christians marched with them.  King, was Christian - most of his friends were.  Where were his white Christian brothers and sisters?  (Probably sending emails about Obama being a monkey without his birth certificate.)  The majority of 'whites' that marched with the blacks in the civil rights movement were not Christians  - but Jews.  Go figure.  

No, as long as any faith weds itself to a political OR economic ideology, (and make no mistake, neo-liberal economics -sometimes called supply side, or free market, or capitalism ((Adam's invisible hand / Ricardo)) IS an economic ideology) and attempts to use the government to spread, enforce, etc its 'morality' on others... I remain on guard.  Secular states are the only protection.   And, yes, I know this is an ad hominim argument, but so are the 'testimonials' the missionizers use to 'authenticate' their stances.  

Yes, i am very distrustful of ANY religious / faith system getting control of a government.  And I know WWJD doesn't work.   Lest you think I am some sort of anti-christian crazy, far from it.  I was an ordained minister of the gospel for many years - and I have translated much of the so-called "new testamant' from Greek into English.  I just made the mistake of actually reading the Torah and the prophets in context - not merely as a set of texts from which to cherry pick quotes and mis quotes in an ultimately dis-ingenious attempt to make Christianity the true heir of the historical jesus and of Judaism.  It is neither.  So, I converted to Judaism.  But i don't want orthodox Jews running / controlling ANY government either.  

 Bottom line, for me, is this:  how we treat the least powerful persons in our lives, and in our society, is the truest indicator of our values and commitments.   I won't write about this anymore... nor will i try to hijack the thread further (just learned about hijacking...) But i also could not let the missionizer statements go without bearing witness to my experience and my commitment  that a secular society is the only place where ALL people, of whatever faith, (or non-faith) can truly live, work, and cooperate together.   With kindest regards,  Elana

Now... back to why I am really here.... gaming... 

.   

Oh, the movie... my experience of viewing Blood Diamonds was very emotional.  i ran the gamut of feelings, anger, fear, sorrow, empathy, and even a brief bit of rage.   The movie is kinda in the Charles Dickens tradition, but very updated.  

Yes, we humans, (Homo sapiens sapiens) have within us the sparks to ascend to the very heights of the heavens, and to descend to the very depths of sheol.  We can do great good and great evil.    And some can grow and evolve in later life to the place where our reasoning skills are not subjugated to fulfilling merely selfish ends.  For humans who want to evolve - see the movie.  

The Pope gave a speech a long time ago about how a primary source of Africa's problems originate externally from what he referred to as Special Interests.

In the near future, African conflicts will intensify now that China and America have both eyed its strategic resources.  I know this because I was in the military.  If you desire to know more then Google AfriCom or African Command the newly US formed segment of the military command structure.

The real threat with US and China competing in a zero sum game is they prefer to work through proxy when possible.  Heavily arm and fund militant faction X to topple and kill faction Y but avoid faction Z.  Sometimes, more than sometimes you have situations like Rwanda.  Fortunately diamonds are not a strategic resource like burnable fuel energy but that is beside the point.  Africa is one of the single most resource rich areas in the world.  In theory it should be the wealthiest but it is the most impoverished.

The movie IIRC, it has been awhile, was partially financed by the DeBeers Corporation.  DeBeers have maintained a monopoly on the diamond industry despite antitrust legislation, revolutions, emerging competition, global political demands (industrial diamonds for WW2), the rise and fall of communism and until recently emerging technologies.  The nicknamed blood diamond industry exist outside of that monopoly so there are valid business reasons to counter promote it.  Not saying that the blood diamond industry is a good thing because plainly it is not!

Amazing Factoid!  The president's biological father was a *revolutionary who fought against such activity.  If he were alive today, how would he feel that his son, now the leader, is now administering everything his father died fighting against?  Food for thought or is that forbidden fruit?  Well whatever.

*I use the term revolutionary out of respect for his son US president Beroc Obama unlike the UK who have officially classified the father a terrorist.

Rogue captain:  as an ex military man, I am very happy you can now speak the truth about (much - not all) of our leaders' true intentions about how to use the massive military we have.  And, yes, its pretty apparent that the US and China are on a collision course, both going "full speed ahead."  And zero-sum resources in an ever smaller world will, likely, bring on another 'cold war.'  And proxy wars will continue to flourish.  Haven't you ever wondered why the US gov't seems to prefer dictatorships to democratically elected governments?  We have a long record of forcing 'regime change' - overthrowing elected governments and installing dictators (er... I mean kings, Shaws).  Whats up with that?

Its about free(er) access to the host's resources, without the necessity of sharing the benefits with the host nation's general population (rather sharing only with the leaders and corp entities).

Blood diamonds are a part of it - but many resources are also, as you suggest, part of the matrix.  Blood diamonds are a horrible symptom, but not the cause.

What saddens me even more than the prospect of this continued economic-style  imperialism / colonialism with its concomitant savage raping of both host nation's land and  people, is the increasing likelihood that the American people's consent to such behaviors will continue to harden their hearts and undo (at the very least) whats left of the reforms of FDR, and the civil rights movement.  

Don't get caught up in the sound bites, or the political theater in Washington DC.  Its merely smoke an mirrors on a scale never before attempted. Just take a look at the US tax policies, etc. over the last 30 years... and see if you see a pattern?  You will.   

If you place a FROG in a pot of cool water, and then  heat that pot s-l-o-w-l-y, the frog will never hop out, but remain and get cooked.  Drop a frog into a pot of hot water, and if it survives the initial impact, it will frantically attempt to hop out.   The lower and middle classes in the US are the frog sitting in that big pot of water, and the temperature has been rising for 30 years.  It won't be long and the owners of that pot will be having frog's legs as an appetizer.  

We are all part of the problem, and we are the only ones who can make the economic rulers (and their military hand maidens) transform into servants of the people.  Lets hope people wake up before, whats left of citizen rights, (in the name of 'austerity), are boiled away.  When the middle class is finally broken in the US, who will speak up for them?  Everyone else will have already been silenced.

Thanks for the factoid about our President's father... I will learn more....

These are some of the most profound comments I have read in some time and I thank you for them. These are many of the things I have been trying to say for some time now but my writing skills leave something to be desired. If no one has any objections, I would like to uses some quotes in future articles. Thanks again. Michelle

Those who liked blood diamond would likely also enjoy the movie Amistad. For me, Amistad is one of those movies that is so profound it is burned into my soul and i will never forget!

What makes people tick is of particular interest too me...

If you look at children it becomes clear that people start off as inherently good ranging to slightly bad just as a product of genetics. Those same genetics will play a role in how the person reacts to life experience, environment and random events. But it is all a supremely complicated mixed bag of probability.

When you take a close look at a persons actions and words, that is just the tip of the iceberg of what makes that person tick. I find it is possible to some degree to 'reverse engineer' the surface activity of a person and be able to see much deeper to what is going on underneath, some people are very good at this, such as clairvoyants, charismatic preachers and successful police detectives - but i think it is a natural human ability we all can take advantage of if we choose to open our eyes to it. There is so much bitter conflict between individuals in the world today which is completely unnecessary if only one side or the other chose to look a bit deeper than the surface events sparking the conflict.

What it all means is that if a person is bad, very bad or good, there will be a complex structure of life experience, environment and genetics underneath which is the foundation making up who that person is and why they act in such a way.

In my life, i have noticed there seems to be two kinds of evil....

1) justified evil

Most common - Justified evil is the evil people perpetrate which they 'justify' to themselves in a multitude of different ways. They will have a negative/dissolutionment view of some aspects of morality.

2) enjoyment evil

Enjoyment evil - this is scary, people who simply love to perpetrate evil, i have seen it, not good! I think it is a combination of base genetics leaning towards bad to start with and then lack of discipline growing up, whereby the lack of discipline allows the child to feed their bad side and take satisfaction from it. This type of evil is vastly assisted in modern western countries who have lost the plot and done away with discipline, i shudder to think what the future holds for us!

Note; There will often be some crossover of the two types of evil as well. Evil perpetrated as a result of mental disability or as a result of peer pressure i would put under justified evil as well. If you believe in the influence of evil spirits, they love to try to convince people of the justification of evil. Enjoyment evil, well evil spirits have a free ride here, nothing to do but enjoy the view!

I noticed an interesting part in the film Schindler's List where Oscar actually manipulated the German commandant into not killing Jews for a period of time. Although it was not entirely successful solution, (realistically, a situation beyond repair by any mortal words) this is exactly what i am talking about when it comes to understanding what makes people tick underneath the surface and how you can use that higher understanding to avoid unnecessary conflict at the very least, but also be better able to  resolve situations and even help people!

Mystikmind: Thanks for the comment, you were spot on. I have just ordered Amistad and should have it in a couple of days, I am sure I will discover much of which you have because it only takes a person who cares for their neighbors and countrymen and human life in general ... I care. I find it difficult today to talk about things like right and wrong, truth and falsehood, good or bad and righteous or not. We have succumbed to self-serving redefinitions of these ideals. This cavalier and destructive practice has all but removed humanitarianism from the to-do list … unless of course there is enough capitol involved. Plutonomy (Economic growth that is powered and consumed by the wealthiest upper class of society.) has replaced democracy here in the America Government. And this is what we are exporting to the third world all the while calling it freedom and democracy, go figure.

Thank you;

The way individuals function is one thing, but the way a free society like America functions is something else entirely and at the same time both are intimately connected with one another!

I take it from your post, that the morals of society are of concern to you, and well they should be! I have thought about the morals of society allot - but i live in Australia, anyhow, I'm sure what i have to say about Australia would also be true of other western democracies??

I have come to consider there are two main reasons for moral decay in western society, and surprisingly neither of them is greed!

First and foremost is the way we have done away with good old fashioned hard discipline for our children. Now as terrible as hard discipline is, what it does, that is so important is that it solidly reinforces children's ability to resist acting on primitive emotional impulses. Sure they can revert back but at least there is a good foundation of control instilled in them if they choose to use it as opposed to children today who miss out on that foundation of control and even good children can grow upend getting in trouble when it is just so unnecessary.

Secondly, is the 'nanny state' and this is the insidious one most people will never have even considered - The Law! How can the law be blamed for moral decay in society you may ask? I will tell you, because in western society, the law has grown to replace right and wrong, and replaced it with legal and illegal. Our obsession with safety and litigation has also prompted the law to replace wisdom and the choice between good and bad decisions. No one has to think for themselves anymore, the government is doing it all for us, and this is a massive source of moral and intellectual decay. In the old days, there were things called 'honor' and 'integrity' and people were actively conscious of protecting and upholding their integrity and honor. These days people think along the lines of "nah, cant do that, it's against the law, or i could get sued" There not at all thinking about right or wrong. Is it any wonder people are like they are, really?