At least bring common sense to the table
… the movie – 2004 – By Michael Moore
Published on May 4, 2011 By BoobzTwo In Politics

I must confess that I actually thought I hated this man and everything he was about until I started experiencing an overload of inaccurate and fictitious information the USG keeps pounding out and calling it the truth … so I decided to try an independent review of what I thought I knew and didn’t really. So I never watched or read anything Moore was involved with but I was more than willing to tell you how screwed up he was. So I rented the movie from Netflix and watched it … and I was amazed.

I have watched it twice now and I cannot find one shred of much information that is not factual or accurate. Beyond some idiosyncrasies in his sense of humor (they are funny); he presents very valid arguments and backs them up with documentation and interviews. He brings to light many of the things I have discovered in my own research into deceit, terrorism and the USG.

When I was a liberal (before I knew better) the only accurate information had to come from another liberal else it was a lie??? Later when I made my second mistake and became a conservative I learned the error of my ways … the truth could only be had from like ilk … so imagine my confusion when I called the neolibs and neocons for what they are and went independent. Suddenly, I have no source of valid information at all now (seemingly hehehe). I have had no success at all trying to walk the moderate tightrope between all the sharks without one side or the other dragging me down, go figure.

As far as Democrats/Republicans are concerned, their only care about the independent majority is how many they can acquire each election. But no matter which side is the best recruiter or who gets most independent votes … matters that concern the moderates will largely be ignored or sidelined and the neo-politicians will go their own course virtually unrestricted and completely unaccountable.


Comments (Page 9)
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on May 08, 2011

LightofAbraxas
Thanks, guys. This thread makes me feel a lot better about my life.

Seriously.

 

Isn't it grand?

 

All this shows is that politicians are dogs, and people are morons.  Is a republic really the best form of government, when the people are so ill informed and easily pandered to?

on May 09, 2011

yeah... I won't be sticking around in this country for much longer if things continue down this path...

on May 09, 2011

"chairman will advise that the rules do care"

SO EPIC.

 

 

on May 09, 2011

1 hour 35 min in.

Not a single piece of info about 9/11 yet.

lots of propaganda though.  definatly got my fill of propoganda for the year.

Actually.

I feel like.

I need to go watch some good hitler and soviet videos to make up for it.

jegus dick 20 min left.

10 min.  hallaburtern. yay.

ooo. good line.

1:53:03 

"Ignorants. That we deal with with every day people.  Cause they dont know. people think they know but you dont know. I thought i knew but i didnt know.  "

 

guuuh finally over.  I swear.  

Kinda makes me want to enlist though. 

but ya.  so.  nothing more than propoganda.  sob stories.  all that good stuff.

makes me want to run some numbers on american death tolls from iraq/afganistan compared to the civil war/ww1/ww2

Then weight it to take into account population growth.

god. no. numbers. whatsoever.  well. there were some dollar sign numbers.  might have mentioned the death toll of 9:11. 

its like.

You know. its a good strat.  If the other guy never makes a case... you cant argue against it.  See like.  there should be some automatic... you know.. like in RTSs.. if the other guy dont fight,.... you get to nuke his planets.

 edit:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/feindpro.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/kriegsziel.htm

there we go.  i feel so fair and balanced now.

on May 09, 2011

People generally get the governments they demand.  Sadly we either don't demand or we demand the wrong things.

We actually need (in the U.S.) education really enhanced about national policy and decision making, governmental rights and limitations, citizen activism, etc.

Kids need to start learning in grade school how they can influence their representatives and have it ingrained in them at a young age that politicians are supposed to be informed individuals serving the needs of their communities and populations.  By middle school, they need to be educated about the national economy and interests and relevant current events.  In fact it ought to be a requirement to graduate that you pass a version of a citizenship test and then required again before you can vote in each election--just like renewing your driver's license. The test shouldn't cover just history and rules but should also require a demonstrated knowledge of current issues of national importance.

I want go on about campaign finance rules and the need for a harsh change but, yeah, that too.  Constitutional requirements  and Congressional ethics rules need to be treated seriously and have dire consequences when broken.

Patriotism should not be a dirty word but neither should it be ignorant, uneducated and uninformed.  If we lose the ability to feel a sense of patriotism we have really lost our sense of being citizens.

I say we do one more big bombing raid on the Taliban--we fly B-2,s, B-52's and B-1s over in full force and drop all of our politicians on them.  The ones who are able to make it back on their own to the US can have their seats back.

on May 09, 2011

Waste of jet fuel, just light them on fire in the streets of DC, the ones that don't burn we can hang as witches.

on May 09, 2011

wiskey144  you are presenting an ad homonim argument which is, by definition, a logical falacy.   Truth is truth, no matter WHO states it.  False is false, no matter who states it.   The fact that a person does not totally, 100% ACT according the the truth they espouse does NOT invalidate what they state.  Neither does someones heroic, super moral, or popular lifestyle / committment to "truth, justice,and the American Way..." necessirally make all they espouse true. 

Truth is either true or false based on the logical use of evidence, and valid reasoning, not on attacking (or praising) the speaker's lifestyle.  Were the previous sentence not true, none of us would be able to safely say anything to people who disagreed with us.

 

on May 09, 2011

ElanaAhova
wiskey144  you are presenting an ad homonim argument which is, by definition, a logical falacy.   Truth is truth, no matter WHO states it.  False is false, no matter who states it.   The fact that a person does not totally, 100% ACT according the the truth they espouse does NOT invalidate what they state.  Neither does someones heroic, super moral, or popular lifestyle / committment to "truth, justice,and the American Way..." necessirally make all they espouse true. 

Truth is either true or false based on the logical use of evidence, and valid reasoning, not on attacking (or praising) the speaker's lifestyle.  Were the previous sentence not true, none of us would be able to safely say anything to people who disagreed with us.

In all actuality, I wasn't presenting an Ad Hominem fallacy.

My opposition, however was, which you seem to be conveniently ignoring.

on May 09, 2011

How can you KNOW truth if you do not have all the knowledge to understand said truth?  It is foolish to assume that one can know every detail in order to make a complete statement of truth.  Man is not capable of truth.

 

And thanks Pbhead for wasting your time on that video so I didn't have to... I see it was what I thought it would be.

 

 

 

Here is a list to get you started on what I find problematic on this "documentary."  I had already done my research a long time ago on this topic.... I wonder why it is surfacing now?  More political propaganda perhaps?

http://www.davekopel.com/terror/fiftysix-deceits-in-fahrenheit-911.htm

 

on May 09, 2011

Sinperium - Great post!  As a simple answer to most of the concerns you mentioned ... the USG Department of No-Education comes to mind. It would seem that there are more important things than giving our children a practical education, go figure. I would be happy if they would teach R-R-R's and common sense ... and left the social programming of the children to the parents. I do not think many adults today are going to become un-brainwashed from anything the USG would do … after all they supply the impetus for this quandary … because it is in their best interests.
 
Just think of what we could really do if the neo-politicians stopped pretending to oppose each other on non-political issues like...

  • GW, 
    Abortions,
  • Religion,
  • The constitution, 
    War,
  • Peace (???),
  • Human rights,
  • Civil rights,
  • God given rights,
  • Sexual divergences, 
    Green whatever,
  • Racism,
  • Immigration reform,
  • Border control,
  • Energy restrictions,
  • Developing our own resources, etc.

My goodness, no more fighting … peace … we could mostly work together… But then the USG wouldn’t be able to play good cop-bad cop over and over again … to sway the neo-sheeple to their will. People are going to remain malleable to the dictates of their government as long as they allow their leaders to politicize every aspect of their life. Politics bespeaks of strife and struggle, criminality, lies and deceit, fabrications and a complete lack of transparency … Nope, don’t need this nonsense in control of any aspect of my life … to each his own I guess.

on May 10, 2011

SivCorp
Here is a list to get you started on what I find problematic on this "documentary." I had already done my research a long time ago on this topic.... I wonder why it is surfacing now? More political propaganda perhaps?
Since this is the second time you referenced this article I downloaded a copy but have only been able to quickly scan it … but I saw several things that I can refute using Moore’s funny little film and do not need any of the other collaborating articles and documentaries.  And you have a list written representing what … the USG’s best interests. My, where else would one go to disprove the USG’s claims … go figure. I agree this was not the ideal poster child for the cause I guess, but I had just watched it and there was a lot of things in there that reinforced much of what I had already discovered … thus my claim in the article that  I found little “information therein that was not factual or accurate”. This is all in the OP you know??? If you really believe that “Man is not capable of truth” … I don’t think this is exactly what you wanted to say … but I’d say you are in a bad way.

on May 10, 2011

The entire "documentary" has no merit, and all of the facts it did use were taken so far out of context, combined with Michael Moore's presentation style, make the "documentary" little more than a fallacy. The "documentary" cannot refute anything, because it doesn't possess any factual information whatsoever.

on May 10, 2011

I was wondering what this thread was all about.... none of the posts seemed to make much sense so i Googled Fahrenheit 9/11 and still the posts don't make much sense hehehe!

Anyway, i remember seeing that documentary advertised on TV and thought "what a load of xxxx". Simply because of the name! because i did not know the significance of the name (which i just found out). Therefore the name 'Fahrenheit 9/11 in my mind conjured up impressions of heightened sensationalism on overdrive gone berserk and causing peoples heads to overheat and explode! (some may still feel that way about it)

 

Here is my simplistic take on the Iraq wars.... war number 1 being less justifiable than number two for America at least since Kuwait in their infinite wisdom before war 1 chose to boot out America from their country to suck up to their neighbors, gee that worked well, In which case America's response to Saddam's invasion should have been as follows... "hahahaha sucked in" end of story.

War number 2, i could understand the reasons and for a brief time i even supported it then i realized something important (this is before no weapons of mass destruction were found). In the world there are many different countries and many different dangers, western countries have to learn to accept this fact, so why is Iraq so much more dangerous than any other dangerous country that the US has to invade? It makes no sense. Now there is also another important point why war number 2 was not wise.... The international community chose to leave Saddam in power after war number 1 therefore if Saddam was to eventually use weapons of mass destruction the US could sit back and laugh and say, "well that just proves we were right and you lot are all stupid". The international community needs to bear the consequences of it's decisions, without America scuffling around under their feet doing all the hard work, all the dying and saving the international community from it's own stupidity!!

on May 10, 2011

BoobzTwo

*snip*

If you really believe that “Man is not capable of truth” … I don’t think this is exactly what you wanted to say … but I’d say you are in a bad way.

 

I mean exactly what I said.  And no, I am not in any "bad" way.  I simply know the limits of human comprehension.

Remember 500 years ago how the world was flat, and everyone "knew" it was? But I digress....

 

BoobzTwo

Just think of what we could really do if the neo-politicians stopped pretending to oppose each other on non-political issues like...


1 GW, 
2 Abortions,
3 Religion,
4 The constitution, 
5 War,
6 Peace (???),
7 Human rights,
8 Civil rights,
9 God given rights,
10 Sexual divergences, 
11 Green whatever,
12 Racism,
13 Immigration reform,
14 Border control,
15 Energy restrictions,
16 Developing our own resources, etc.

 

Ok, lets look at this list then, and see what I see here.

1 - stands for what?

2 - morality, what does one stand for?  If you can't defend the innocent and unborn you have no business procreating.

3 - not going there....

4 - If you can not live under a countries founding documents, then you should leave that country for one that you agree with.

5,6 - war and peace are simple conflict resolutions

7 - what rights do you want to have?  what rights will you give up?  and who decides?  Do you really want to go there?

8 - same as above

9 - still same as above

10 - the problem is in the definition.... going against the natural order of things is obviously a problem.

11 - slime?  I suppose it is good to be responsible with what we have, isn't it?

12 - I have none, just experience.

13 - A country without any law will degrade into lawlessness

14 - same as above

15 - politics should not influence the free market, period.

16 - same as above

 

I don't see how protecting a nations people is non-political.  I don't see how having law to protect the people i non-political. I don't see how providing a free market for productivity to thrive is non-political.

 

And I don't see how you can be taken seriously when you make these obviously flawed statements.

 

 

 

"Prejudices are what fools use for reason."  - Voltaire

on May 10, 2011

'Non-political'...  Hmm.

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